By Greta Christina | 30 March 2012
AlterNet
The following is an excerpt from “Why Are You Atheists So Angry? 99 Things That Piss Off the Godless” by Greta Christina. The book is available electronically on Kindle, Nook, and soon in print.
“But just because religion has done some harm — that doesn’t mean it’s mistaken! Sure, people have done terrible things in God’s name. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist!”
Yup. If you’re arguing that — you’re absolutely right. And the question of whether religion is true or not is important. It’s not the main point of this book: if you want more thorough arguments for why God doesn’t exist, by me or other writers, check out the Resource Guide at the end of this book. But “Does God exist?” is a valid and relevant question. Here are my Top Ten reasons why the answer is a resounding, “No.”
1: The consistent replacement of supernatural explanations of the world with natural ones.
When you look at the history of what we know about the world, you see a noticeable pattern. Natural explanations of things have been replacing supernatural explanations of them. Like a steamroller. Why the Sun rises and sets. Where thunder and lightning come from. Why people get sick. Why people look like their parents. How the complexity of life came into being. I could go on and on.
All these things were once explained by religion. But as we understood the world better, and learned to observe it more carefully, the explanations based on religion were replaced by ones based on physical cause and effect. Consistently. Thoroughly. Like a steamroller. The number of times that a supernatural explanation of a phenomenon has been replaced by a natural explanation? Thousands upon thousands upon thousands.
Now. The number of times that a natural explanation of a phenomenon has been replaced by a supernatural one? The number of times humankind has said, “We used to think (X) was caused by physical cause and effect, but now we understand that it’s caused by God, or spirits, or demons, or the soul”?
Exactly zero.
Sure, people come up with new supernatural “explanations” for stuff all the time. But explanations with evidence? Replicable evidence? Carefully gathered, patiently tested, rigorously reviewed evidence? Internally consistent evidence? Large amounts of it, from many different sources? Again — exactly zero.
Given that this is true, what are the chances that any given phenomenon for which we currently don’t have a thorough explanation — human consciousness, for instance, or the origin of the Universe — will be best explained by the supernatural?
Given this pattern, it’s clear that the chances of this are essentially zero. So close to zero that they might as well be zero. And the hypothesis of the supernatural is therefore a hypothesis we can discard. It is a hypothesis we came up with when we didn’t understand the world as well as we do now… but that, on more careful examination, has never once been shown to be correct.
If I see any solid evidence to support God, or any supernatural explanation of any phenomenon, I’ll reconsider my disbelief. Until then, I’ll assume that the mind-bogglingly consistent pattern of natural explanations replacing supernatural ones is almost certain to continue.
(Oh — for the sake of brevity, I’m generally going to say “God” in this chapter when I mean “God, or the soul, or metaphysical energy, or any sort of supernatural being or substance.” I don’t feel like getting into discussions about, “Well, I don’t believe in an old man in the clouds with a white beard, but I believe…” It’s not just the man in the white beard that I don’t believe in. I don’t believe in any sort of religion, any sort of soul or spirit or metaphysical guiding force, anything that isn’t the physical world and its vast and astonishing manifestations.
2: The inconsistency of world religions.
If God (or any other metaphysical being or beings) were real, and people were really perceiving him/ her/ it/ them, why do these perceptions differ so wildly?
When different people look at, say, a tree, we more or less agree about what we’re looking at: what size it is, what shape, whether it currently has leaves or not and what color those leaves are, etc. We may have disagreements regarding the tree — what other plants it’s most closely related to, where it stands in the evolutionary scheme, should it be cut down to make way for a new sports stadium, etc. But unless one of us is hallucinating or deranged or literally unable to see, we can all agree on the tree’s basic existence, and the basic facts about it.
This is blatantly not the case for God. Even among people who do believe in God, there is no agreement about what God is, what God does, what God wants from us, how he acts or doesn’t act on the world, whether he’s a he, whether there’s one or more of him, whether he’s a personal being or a diffuse metaphysical substance. And this is among smart, thoughtful people. What’s more, many smart, thoughtful people don’t even think God exists.
And if God existed, he’d be a whole lot bigger, a whole lot more powerful, with a whole lot more effect in the world, than a tree. Why is it that we can all see a tree in more or less the same way, but we don’t see God in even remotely the same way?
The explanation, of course, is that God does not exist. We disagree so radically over what he is because we aren’t perceiving anything that’s real. We’re “perceiving” something we made up; something we were taught to believe; something that the part of our brain that’s wired to see pattern and intention, even when none exists, is inclined to see and believe.
3: The weakness of religious arguments, explanations, and apologetics.
I have seen a lot of arguments for the existence of God. And they all boil down to one or more of the following: The argument from authority. (Example: “God exists because the Bible says God exists.”) The argument from personal experience. (Example: “God exists because I feel in my heart that God exists.”) The argument that religion shouldn’t have to logically defend its claims. (Example: “God is an entity that cannot be proven by reason or evidence.”) Or the redefining of God into an abstract principle… so abstract that it can’t be argued against, but also so abstract that it scarcely deserves the name God. (Example: “God is love.”)
And all these arguments are ridiculously weak.
Sacred books and authorities can be mistaken. I have yet to see a sacred book that doesn’t have any mistakes. (The Bible, to give just one example, is shot full of them.) And the feelings in people’s hearts can definitely be mistaken. They are mistaken, demonstrably so, much of the time. Instinct and intuition play an important part in human understanding and experience… but they should never be treated as the final word on a subject. I mean, if I told you, “The tree in front of my house is 500 feet tall with hot pink leaves,” and I offered as a defense, “I know this is true because my mother/ preacher/ sacred book tells me so”… or “I know this is true because I feel it in my heart”… would you take me seriously?
Some people do try to prove God’s existence by pointing to evidence in the world. But that evidence is inevitably terrible. Pointing to the perfection of the Bible as a historical and prophetic document, for instance… when it so blatantly is nothing of the kind. Or pointing to the fine-tuning of the Universe for life… even though this supposedly perfect fine-tuning is actually pretty crappy, and the conditions that allow for life on Earth have only existed for the tiniest fragment of the Universe’s existence and are going to be boiled away by the Sun in about a billion years. Or pointing to the complexity of life and the world and insisting that it must have been designed… when the sciences of biology and geology and such have provided far, far better explanations for what seems, at first glance, like design.
As to the argument that “We don’t have to show you any reason or evidence, it’s unreasonable and intolerant for you to even expect that”… that’s conceding the game before you’ve even begun. It’s like saying, “I know I can’t make my case — therefore I’m going to concentrate my arguments on why I don’t have to make my case in the first place.” It’s like a defense lawyer who knows their client is guilty, so they try to get the case thrown out on a technicality.
Ditto with the “redefining God out of existence” argument. If what you believe in isn’t a supernatural being or substance that has, or at one time had, some sort of effect on the world… well, your philosophy might be an interesting one, but it is not, by any useful definition of the word, religion.
Again: If I tried to argue, “The tree in front of my house is 500 feet tall with hot pink leaves — and the height and color of trees is a question that is best answered with personal faith and feeling, not with reason or evidence”… or, “I know this is true because I am defining ’500 feet tall and hot pink’ as the essential nature of tree-ness, regardless of its outward appearance”… would you take me seriously?
4: The increasing diminishment of God.
This is closely related to #1 (the consistent replacement of supernatural explanations of the world with natural ones). But it’s different enough to deserve its own section.
When you look at the history of religion, you see that the perceived power of God has been diminishing. As our understanding of the physical world has increased — and as our ability to test theories and claims has improved — the domain of God’s miracles and interventions, or other supposed supernatural phenomena, has consistently shrunk.
Examples: We stopped needing God to explain floods… but we still needed him to explain sickness and health. Then we didn’t need him to explain sickness and health… but we still needed him to explain consciousness. Now we’re beginning to get a grip on consciousness, so we’ll soon need God to explain… what?
Or, as writer and blogger Adam Lee so eloquently put it in his Ebon Musings website, “Where the Bible tells us God once shaped worlds out of the void and parted great seas with the power of his word, today his most impressive acts seem to be shaping sticky buns into the likenesses of saints and conferring vaguely-defined warm feelings on his believers’ hearts when they attend church.”
This is what atheists call the “god of the gaps.” Whatever gap there is in our understanding of the world, that’s what God is supposedly responsible for. Wherever the empty spaces are in our coloring book, that’s what gets filled in with the blue crayon called God.
But the blue crayon is worn down to a nub. And it’s never turned out to be the right color. And over and over again, throughout history, we’ve had to go to great trouble to scrape the blue crayon out of people’s minds and replace it with the right color. Given this pattern, doesn’t it seem that we should stop reaching for the blue crayon every time we see an empty space in the coloring book?
5: The fact that religion runs in families.
The single strongest factor in determining what religion a person is? It’s what religion they were brought up with. By far. Very few people carefully examine all the available religious beliefs — or even some of those beliefs — and select the one they think most accurately describes the world. Overwhelmingly, people believe whatever religion they were taught as children.
Now, we don’t do this with, for instance, science. We don’t hold on to the Steady State theory of the Universe, or geocentrism, or the four bodily humours theory of illness, simply because it’s what we were taught as children. We believe whatever scientific understanding is best supported by the best available evidence at the time. And if the evidence changes, our understanding changes. (Unless, of course, it’s a scientific understanding that our religion teaches is wrong…)
Even political opinions don’t run in families as stubbornly as religion. Witness the opinion polls that show support of same-sex marriage increasing with each new generation. Political beliefs learned from youth can, and do, break down in the face of the reality that people see every day. And scientific theories do this, all the time, on a regular basis.
This is emphatically not the case with religion.
Which leads me to the conclusion that religion is not a perception of a real entity. If it were, people wouldn’t just believe whatever religion they were taught as children, simply because it was what they were taught as children. The fact that religion runs so firmly in families strongly suggests that it is not a perception of a real phenomenon. It is a dogma, supported and perpetuated by tradition and social pressure — and in many cases, by fear and intimidation. Not by reality.
6: The physical causes of everything we think of as the soul.
The sciences of neurology and neuropsychology are in their infancy. But they are advancing by astonishing leaps and bounds, even as we speak. And what they are finding — consistently, thoroughly, across the board — is that, whatever consciousness is, it is inextricably linked to the brain.
Everything we think of as the soul — consciousness, identity, character, free will — all of that is powerfully affected by physical changes to the brain and body. Changes in the brain result in changes in consciousness… sometimes so drastically, they make a personality unrecognizable. Changes in consciousness can be seen, with magnetic resonance imagery, as changes in the brain. Illness, injury, drugs and medicines, sleep deprivation, etc…. all of these can make changes to the supposed “soul,” both subtle and dramatic. And death, of course, is a physical change that renders a person’s personality and character, not only unrecognizable, but non-existent.
So the obvious conclusion is that consciousness and identity, character and free will, are products of the brain and the body. They’re biological processes, governed by laws of physical cause and effect. With any other phenomenon, if we can show that physical forces and actions produce observable effects, we think of that as a physical phenomenon. Why should the “soul” be any different?
What’s more, the evidence supporting this conclusion comes from rigorously-gathered, carefully-tested, thoroughly cross-checked, double-blinded, placebo- controlled, replicated, peer-reviewed research. The evidence has been gathered, and continues to be gathered, using the gold standard of scientific evidence: methods specifically designed to filter out biases and cognitive errors as much as humanly possible. And it’s not just a little research. It’s an enormous mountain of research… a mountain that’s growing more mountainous every day.
The hypothesis of the soul, on the other hand, has not once in all of human history been supported by good, solid scientific evidence. That’s pretty surprising when you think about it. For decades, and indeed centuries, most scientists had some sort of religious beliefs, and most of them believed in the soul. So a great deal of early science was dedicated to proving the soul’s existence, and discovering and exploring its nature. It wasn’t until after decades upon decades of fruitless research in this area that scientists finally gave it up as a bad job, and concluded, almost unanimously, that the reason they hadn’t found a soul was that there was no such thing.
Are there unanswered questions about consciousness? Absolutely. Tons of them. No reputable neurologist or neuropsychologist would say otherwise. But think again about how the history of human knowledge is the history of supernatural explanations being replaced by natural ones… with relentless consistency, again, and again, and again. There hasn’t been a single exception to this pattern. Why would we assume that the soul is going to be that exception? Why would we assume that this gap in our knowledge, alone among all the others, is eventually going to be filled with a supernatural explanation? The historical pattern doesn’t support it. And the evidence doesn’t support it. The increasingly clear conclusion of the science is that consciousness is a product of the brain. Period.
7: The complete failure of any sort of supernatural phenomenon to stand up to rigorous testing.
Not all religious and spiritual beliefs make testable claims. But some of them do. And in the face of actual testing, every one of those claims falls apart like Kleenex in a hurricane.
Whether it’s the power of prayer, or faith healing, or astrology, or life after death: the same pattern is seen. Whenever religious and supernatural beliefs have made testable claims, and those claims have been tested — not half-assedly tested, but really tested, using careful, rigorous, double-blind, placebo-controlled, replicated, etc. etc. etc. testing methods — the claims have consistently fallen apart. Occasionally a scientific study has appeared that claimed to support something supernatural… but more thorough studies have always refuted them. Every time.
I’m not going to cite each one of these tests, or even most of them. This chapter is already long as it is. Instead, I’ll encourage you to spend a little time on the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry and Skeptical Inquirer websites. You’ll see a pattern so consistent it boggles the mind: Claimants insist that Supernatural Claim X is real. Supernatural Claim X is subjected to careful testing, applying the standard scientific methods used in research to screen out bias and fraud. Supernatural Claim X is found to hold about as much water as a sieve. (And claimants, having agreed beforehand that the testing method is valid, afterwards insist that it wasn’t fair.)
And don’t say, “Oh, the testers were biased.” That’s the great thing about the scientific method. It’s designed to screen out bias, as much as is humanly possible. When done right, it will give you the right answer, regardless of the bias of the people doing the testing.
And I want to repeat an important point about the supposed anti-religion bias in science. In the early days of science and the scientific method, most scientists did believe in God, and the soul, and the metaphysical. In fact, many early science experiments were attempts to prove the existence of these things, and discover their true natures, and resolve the squabbles about them once and for all. It was only after decades of these experiments failing to turn up anything at all that the scientific community began — gradually, and very reluctantly — to give up on the idea.
Supernatural claims only hold up under careless, casual examination. They are supported by wishful thinking, and confirmation bias (i.e., our tendency to overemphasize evidence that supports what we believe and to discard evidence that contradicts it), and our poor understanding and instincts when it comes to probability, and our tendency to see pattern and intention even when none exists, and a dozen other forms of cognitive bias and weird human brain wiring. When studied carefully, under conditions specifically designed to screen these things out, the claims vanish like the insubstantial imaginings they are.
8: The slipperiness of religious and spiritual beliefs.
Not all religious and spiritual beliefs make testable claims. Many of them have a more “saved if we do, saved if we don’t” quality. If things go the believer’s way, it’s a sign of God’s grace and intervention; if they don’t, then God moves in mysterious ways, and maybe he has a lesson to teach that we don’t understand, and it’s not up to us to question his will. No matter what happens, it can be twisted to prove that the belief is right.
That is a sure sign of a bad argument.
Here’s the thing. It is a well-established principle in the philosophy of science that, if a theory can be supported no matter what possible evidence comes down the pike, it is useless. It has no power to explain what’s already happened, or to predict what will happen in the future. The theory of gravity, for instance, could be disproven by things suddenly falling up; the theory of evolution could be disproven by finding rabbits in the pre-Cambrian fossil layer. These theories predict that those things won’t happen; if they do, the theories go poof. But if your theory of God’s existence holds up no matter what happens — whether your friend with cancer gets better or dies, whether natural disasters strike big sinful cities or small God-fearing towns — then it’s a useless theory, with no power to predict or explain anything.
What’s more, when atheists challenge theists on their beliefs, the theists’ arguments shift and slip around in an annoying “moving the goalposts” way. Hard-line fundamentalists, for instance, will insist on the unchangeable perfect truth of the Bible; but when challenged on its specific historical or scientific errors, they insist that you’re not interpreting those passages correctly. (If the book needs interpreting, then how perfect can it be?)
And progressive ecumenical believers can be unbelievably slippery about what they do and don’t believe. Is God real, or a metaphor? Does God intervene in the world, or doesn’t he? Do they even believe in God, or do they just choose to act as if they believe because they find it useful? Debating with a progressive believer is like wrestling with a fish: the arguments aren’t very powerful, but they’re slippery, and they don’t give you anything firm to grab onto.
Once again, that’s a sure sign of a bad argument. If you can’t make your case and then stick by it, or modify it, or let it go… then you don’t have a good case. (And if you’re making any version of the “Shut up, that’s why” argument — arguing that it’s intolerant to question religious beliefs, or that letting go of doubts about faith makes you a better person, or that doubting faith will get you tortured in Hell, or any of the other classic arguments intended to quash debate rather than address it — that’s a sure sign that your argument is in the toilet.)
9: The failure of religion to improve or clarify over time.
Over the years and decades and centuries, our understanding of the physical world has grown and clarified by a ridiculous amount. We understand things about the Universe that we couldn’t have imagined a thousand years ago, or a hundred, or even ten. Things that make your mouth gape with astonishment just to think about.
And the reason for this is that we came up with an incredibly good method for sorting out good ideas from bad ones. We came up with the scientific method, a self-correcting method for understanding the physical world: a method which — over time, and with the many fits and starts that accompany any human endeavor — has done an astonishingly good job of helping us perceive and understand the world, predict it and shape it, in ways we couldn’t have imagined in decades and centuries past. And the scientific method itself is self-correcting. Not only has our understanding of the natural world improved dramatically: our method for understanding it is improving as well.
Our understanding of the supernatural world? Not so much.
Our understanding of the supernatural world is in the same place it’s always been: hundreds and indeed thousands of sects, squabbling over which sacred texts and spiritual intuitions are the right ones. We haven’t come to any consensus about which religion best understands the supernatural world. We haven’t even come up with a method for making that decision. All anyone can do is point to their own sacred text and their own spiritual intuition. And around in the squabbling circle we go.
All of which points to religion, not as a perception of a real being or substance, but as an idea we made up and are clinging to. If religion were a perception of a real being or substance, our understanding of it would be sharpening, clarifying, being refined. We’d have better prayer techniques, more accurate prophecies, something. Anything but people squabbling with greater or lesser degrees of rancor, and nothing to back up their belief.
10: The complete lack of solid evidence for God’s existence.
This is probably the best argument I have against God’s existence: There’s no evidence for it. No good evidence, anyway. No evidence that doesn’t just amount to opinion and tradition and confirmation bias and all the other stuff I’ve been talking about. No evidence that doesn’t fall apart upon close examination.
And in a perfect world, that should have been the only argument I needed. In a perfect world, I shouldn’t have had to spend a month and a half collating and summarizing the reasons I don’t believe in God, any more than I would have for Zeus or Quetzalcoatl or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As thousands of atheists before me have pointed out: It is not up to us to prove that God does not exist. It is up to theists to prove that he does.
In a comment on my blog, arensb made a point on this topic that was so insightful, I’m still smacking myself on the head for not having thought of it myself. I was writing about how believers get upset at atheists when we reject religion after hearing 876,363 bad arguments for it, and how believers react to this by saying, “But you haven’t considered Argument #876,364! How can you be so close-minded?” And arensb said:
“If, in fact, it turns out that argument #876,364 is the one that will convince you, WTF didn’t the apologists put it in the top 10?”
Why, indeed?
If there’s an argument for religion that’s convincing — actually convincing, convincing by means of something other than authority, tradition, personal intuition, confirmation bias, fear and intimidation, wishful thinking, or some combination of the above — wouldn’t we all know about it?
Wouldn’t it have spread like wildfire? Wouldn’t it be the Meme of All Memes? I mean, we all saw that Simon’s Cat video within about two weeks of it hitting the Internet. Don’t you think that the Truly Excellent Argument for God’s Existence would have spread even faster, and wider, than some silly cartoon cat video?
If the arguments for religion are so wonderful, why are they so unconvincing to anyone who doesn’t already believe?
And why does God need arguments, anyway? Why does God need people to make his arguments for him? Why can’t he just reveal his true self, clearly and unequivocally, and settle the question once and for all? If God existed, why wouldn’t it just be obvious?
It is not up to atheists to prove that God does not exist. It is up to believers to prove that he does. And in the absence of any good, solid evidence or arguments in favor of God’s existence — and in the presence of a whole lot of solid arguments against it — I will continue to be an atheist. God almost certainly does not exist, and it’s completely reasonable to act as if he doesn’t.
Read more of Greta Christina at her blog.
Why Are Atheists So Angry: Greta Christina
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lynne
April 6, 2012 at 10:01 pm
i'm not arguing for or against – i just wonder why it isn't ok with some atheists (i don't know about all) for people to believe what they want to. if in your opinion people who believe in god are fools, why not just leave them to it?
Clive
April 7, 2012 at 11:23 am
hi Lynne I'm not arguing for or against either – I guess it's the same as some theists (also not all) to try to convert everyone else to their particular religion. People are just people and passionate about their beliefs either way.
David Ross
July 28, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Hi Clive. In response to what you posted, I'd like to pose a few questions:
Say that you received a phone call from alien intelligence that Earth was about to be destroyed with everyone and everything on it. What would you do? You'd probably tell everyone with ears to hear that they should try to escape–to prepare for what's coming or be destroyed. One problem. By human nature, nearly everyone will think you're crazy. So why bother? Because you want to save those you care about (and deep down, probably some that you don't care much about).
This is why people (including myself, as a Christian) are a witness to their faith–because there is only one route to salvation and everything else ends with utter destruction. When you think about it, how much would a person of faith have to despise a stranger to NOT share his/her faith with him? Why wouldn't you want to save someone if given the chance?
If every person behaved totally logically:
–People of faith would be doing everything they can to reach out to those who don't know that there is danger coming and that they need to be saved. They'd be a witness and share their faith with as many people as possible, even if in the end only one person chooses to believe and be saved.
–People who have chosen not to believe in God would just make their choice in peace and not constantly argue with everyone else. For if they sincerely believed that they were correct, they shouldn't have reason to care about what anyone else thinks. Unlike with people of faith, it doesn't matter if an atheist doesn't share his/her faith because they (by their own admission) believe that nobody has anything to gain or lose (so why should he care if others aren't atheist?). But honestly, the fact that some atheists/non-believers are so argumentative and insistent that there is no God is a testament to the fact that they aren't 100% sold on their own ideas of atheism/non-belief. If they were, they would be drowning in apathy, not caring as much as they do.
Joseph H Chrestos
September 12, 2012 at 11:31 pm
David your wrong on nearly every point. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is an understanding of reality and a rejection of claims that have no verifiable evidence. When you understand why you reject Zeus then you will understand why atheists reject all claims of a supernatural deity. Faith is that combination of arrogance and ignorance which, if we lived in an honest world, would be called mental illness. Faith is cowardice.
xinnerselfx
September 12, 2012 at 11:53 pm
I feel that the Alien question is a bad example. First of all why would an Alien Life form call you or me, or anyone besides the person that would be considered to the closest thing to the most powerful person on earth. Second, if the aliens were to call that powerful person and the person took it seriously, that person would do everything to validate the conversation through scientific means. If he/she did not then I would not believe him/her either.
Also you have plenty to lose if you are believing in a religion of god that isn't real. You have your entire life, which in the grand scheme of things is incredible short. You will have wasted it on praying, going to church, worshiping, and loving something that isn't there. Why wouldn't I want to try to stop you from wasting your life? Think about the precious moments that would be wasted and not living life to the fullest. Although I can see your counter argument clearly now, "It was not wasted because that's what I believe," and we will be at an impasse. So maybe consider that atheists do care for the rest of the world and don't want good people to suffer and waste their lives on empty promises.
Also saying that Atheists only argue because they aren't firm in their belief is the same as saying you aren't either in your faith because you argue for it so vehemently yourself.
randomfactor23
September 13, 2012 at 12:48 am
"Say that you received a phone call from alien intelligence that Earth was about to be destroyed with everyone and everything on it. What would you do?"
The first call I'd make would be to a mental health organization which accepts my insurance.
Billy
September 25, 2012 at 1:54 am
David, that is closed minded and hypocritical of you to say. You can argue your faith, but we cant argue our lack of faith? How about this fact: You have no proof that believing in god will save us because you have no proof that not believing in god has ever hurt anybody, but I DO have proof that believing in god has caused harm, just look at how many wars and violence in the name of god there has been? So we have more a reason than you to spread our belief!
holly
January 2, 2013 at 3:44 pm
Christians do the same thing david.
Bryan Ritchie
January 2, 2013 at 6:34 pm
Very easy to explain why some atheists explain the way they see the world to the religious.
We watch the religious who we share this planet with. It is great, their books give them morals to live by. The funny thing is, we non-believers have largely the same moral set. Dont steal, kill, commit adultery etc. Why is this? We got there by logic. We want good lives and the easiest way to have that is if everyone treats people as they would like to be treated. We don't need books full of dogma to think that far.
However, we also see certain Christians, Muslims and Jews who are not that concerned if the world is dragged into the hugest war we ever saw. After all it would just be a sign of prophecies coming true. I myself would rather avoid such a conflict and see what amazing future this universe has in store for the smart primates of planet 3.
Megan
January 8, 2013 at 3:02 am
But where does that inner moral conscious come from? Why do we all realize these things are wrong? Something or someone is responsible for that collective unconscious. Who better than a loving God?
Michael
April 25, 2013 at 1:04 am
Morals come from your parents who ever raised you many these were taken from religion but they come from your parents : if your parents were not Christian you would not be this is the main reason I’m an atheist most people are raised into a religion
matthew
January 23, 2013 at 1:41 am
can i answer? i love to answer these sorts of things.
well, first of all, if its in english, or any other language found on earth, i can pretty much rule it out. if its some obscure sounding language, chances are, i don’t know what the heck it says. also, tell me this, what if hell didn’t exist? what if you are completely and utterly wasting your life… worshiping something that doesn’t exist. also, why can’t we have the exact same way of thinking as you do. “your wasting 1/7th or more of your life on something that doesn’t exist. why on earth would you want to do that?” we have reasons for why we wish to debate. why do you have this idea that atheists are apathetic, uncaring, and argumentative? we live in the same places you do. we are your neighbors. we are your community. we are your comedians, your artists, your performers, your scientists, your everything. we are your country. we are hard working individuals. we simply say “show us the evidence” while you say “take it on faith”. put simply, we don’t take it on faith.
Emmy
April 7, 2012 at 12:05 pm
we can’t let them be because of the atrocities that are being committed every day in the name of god and the silence of the religious people about it.
David Ross
July 28, 2012 at 8:32 pm
Are you insinuating that there haven't ever been atrocities committed against people of faith by those who don't believe?
Have you not heard of Communist China and how much they persecute Christians?
Have you not heard of America, where any person of faith is almost constantly judged, belittled, and ridiculed because of it?
Have you not heard of Mainstream Media, which mocks most faiths (although hardly ever do atheists poke fun at themselves, though theirs is a belief, too, believe it or not!)
If we are so bad for believing in God, why is it that predominantly-Christian countries make world relief a higher priority than other countries? Why are so world aid/relief non-profits Christian organizations? Those are just two examples!
You judge us so harshly, but you post demonstrates that you don't have a clue who we are or what we believe at all!
Everybody makes mistakes–people of faith (and myself) included. But to say that people of faith are the only ones responsible for bad decisions and atrocities is not only untrue, but hypocritical and foolish!
Tallus
September 12, 2012 at 11:37 pm
-Communist China wasn't put into place because of non-belief. You would have to add a motive to the people involved because "a lack of a belief in dieties" doesn't make people go do stupid shit.
-American religionists are whining and complaining about being persecuted when they still make up the overwhelming majority of the population? At what point did that actually seem credible? If anything, people who aren't explicitly Christian are standing up to the dominating authoritative complex of Christian politicians who are attempting to use their faith to make the ENTIRE population do what they want. No dogma has any right to dictate what people do in their bedrooms, what medications they take, who they love, who they trust, or what ludicrous Bronze Age rules they should follow. If religious politicians would keep their beliefs AT HOME and run the country on REALITY, no one would be arguing against them.
-Mainstream Media picks on everyone. Atheism IS NOT A BELIEF. It is a LACK of belief. There is NO SUCH THING as a faith in atheism. It's like coming up with words for people who specifically don't play golf, who don't cook, who prefer iced tea to hot, or any number of other things. You label the people who add conditions to the natural state…and since everyone IS BORN AN ATHEIST, the label that gets attached to them later in life is the label of the faith they subscribe to. Don't forget that practically every religious person strangely seems to follow the same faith as their family and community. It's not something inherent in everyone. Religion is taught. It's learned. If God really did exist and it was known by everyone from birth, then the rejection of God would mean more than it does. As it stands, you have to be convinced of the existence of a God. You don't automatically do so.
Christian relief organizations only give about 5c of every dollar to actual relief. The overwhelming majority of the money they bring in goes to administrative costs, the building of churches and the buying of bibles. No starving child is going to give a rat's ass about a bible. They want food. All the money is being wasted. Secular organizations are forced, by and large, to contribute no less than 60% of their income directly towards food, medicine, shelter (not a place of worship), clothing, etc. It's a true shame that government has been blinded into believing a bible can count as 'relief.' It's brainwashing in print and serves no good to anybody.
You apparently don't know much about what your religion actually does. It has been the source of more suffering in the world than any single thing other than disease and natural disaster.
No one said religion is exclusively responsible for bad things that happen, but your religion falls far short of doing the most good. Religion is a business. A tax-exempt business that profits from the misguided beliefs of the people it has convinced of its 'truth.' Your religion takes advantage of the gullible masses and seeks to deny people their basic rights. It seeks to force humanity to an ancient state by denying them access to legitimate knowledge (supported by evidence, not faith), attempting to subjugate women and forcing them to remain in the barbaric cycle of animalistic reproduction and treats them as second class citizens, denies equal status to people who aren't heterosexual and demonizes them to the point where many commit suicide when they can't handle the cruelty anymore, and reduces the responsibility of people for their own atrocities…against each other and against the world itself.
If your religion never existed, the world wouldn't be at war with itself over stupid crap. People wouldn't be blowing themselves up, crashing planes into buildings, torturing entire civilizations, exterminating people based on false accusations, degrading an entire half of the population solely because they have different sex organs, and any number of other things. For every secular/atheist person you can name that committed horrific crimes against anyone, we can list legions of religious believers who have done ten times worse.
FormerFundy
September 14, 2012 at 4:41 pm
This! I’m speechless.
randomfactor23
September 13, 2012 at 12:57 am
Before China was Communist (which is itself a religion) it had its share of pogroms and massacres. One of the worst–one of the worst in history–was when a Christian religion tried to take over.
Ivey Deschanel
September 13, 2012 at 5:14 am
David, I don’t know where you live but in America, it is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you say. The media, politics and the workplace is filled with christian dogma. There are multiple states where it is against the law for an atheist to hold public office. As a secularist, so called christians wish death, rape and everlasting torment on me DAILY for simply being open about not believing in a god. These same christians have persecuted, incited hatred and yes, enacted horrible and prejudiced political policy, subjugated women and throughout history ENSLAVED & KILLED millions because of their “loving just god”. If you need examples as you provided, check out the Crusades, the 30 years war, the Spanish Inquisition & the Holocaust just to name a few.
I don’t hate your god David…I don’t even hate the people who believe in him. I know there are good an bad in every group and I know that most are brainwashed and fearful. What I will not accept and condone is you or anyone saying that christians are persecuted in the US.
I watch the mainstream media every day and I have NEVER seen or heard them mock god. You are completely making that up. I would love to see one example, just one. There are churches everywhere, where you are free to worship in peace as you choose to. You can hold any job, run for public office. you are free to preach your god to the world and to judge others in his name.
What you can’t do is force me to worship something I think is ridiculous and fictional. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the most dangerous institutions the earth has ever known and I will do everything I can to spread THAT word before they send us back into the dark ages again
If I were as open about not believing in god, as you are about believing in him, I would not be able to rent a home, have a job or see most my family ever again. THAT is the truth of how it is in the US. Think about that and then tell me again how much you feel persecuted.
Apologetics R Them
September 22, 2012 at 1:19 am
Apparently, you are suffering from feeling horribly put upon by our arguments. Yes, some atheists are just assholes. We don’t like the Soviet practice much, either. But can you really say that any of our collective actions have been unprecedented? Let me remind you of a very inconvenient truth. Most atheists today and for the past hundred years or so argue with you using those unholy tools of Satan; Logic, Reason, and Words. For the past several THOUSAND years, theists have responded to our supposedly outrageous and blasphemous claims with violence. If you spoke of your disbelief in god before the end of the Middle Ages, you were lucky to get away with being burned at the stake as a heretic. If you (as Galileo did) said that the sun did not orbit the Earth, you were placed under house arrest for the remainder of your degenerate life. Even if you believed in an extra prophet, you were invaded and probably raped by the righteous crusaders of Christianity. If you were unfortunate enough to want a divorce, you had to fight a war against the entire Christian world (meaning the rest of Europe) to get it. As late as the founding of the United States (and beyond, actually), if you taught the logically supported theory of evolution, you were fired at best, mobbed at worst. During about the same time period, if a couple of christian girls didn’t like you, you were tried and drowned or otherwise killed as a witch. Besides that, ever heard of slavery? Ever notice how it went out so EASILY in the solid Christian South? Ever notice how there were no RIOTS or MOBS or police incidents whatsoever? And did you ever realize how all the good little pastors ALWAYS used the bible to condemn slavery? It’s a good story. Even later (and here I speak of Hitler, who was in his own eyes a Christian), anyone you didn’t like could be enslaved, starved, tortured, and later gassed if you happened to run a country. In current times (as in CURRENT times within the past couple of years), Christianity seems to have lost its edge. It’s limited itself to rioting against homosexuality (including shutting down an entire college class to prevent a single gay from entering), suing over bumper stickers of fish with legs, and trying to put the United States under Bible Law. So yes, I’m sorry we talk to you. I’m even sorry some radical atheists banned religion in some far-off country. I’m sure it’s very hurtful and makes you feel bad. We’re such horrible people making all these HORRIBLE and UNFOUNDED accusations that things happen for natural causes and your religion is a load of poppycock. So call me a bigot, call me slime, but always remember that, as much as I may burn you or stab you or riot against your very existence, that my god is a god of Love.
Billy
September 25, 2012 at 1:57 am
Again, youre being a hypocrite, but now youre also lying/twisting facts. Most people in the US believe in God (over 75%, as much as 90%) and its ATHEISTS who judged, belittled, and ridiculed because of it, not the religious, who gang up on us.
Megan
January 8, 2013 at 3:12 am
I would like to personally apologize for any time a Christian has ever made you feel less than you are. It is not our job to judge or belittle anyone, but instead to love the world. Unfortunately, we mess up just as much as the next person and we often lose sight of how far we have strayed from Jesus’ example. I am so sorry for all of the turmoil you have suffered and I will be praying for you, Billy.
Montie
April 7, 2012 at 12:41 pm
I'd be happy to do that, but the problem is that some theists are not just content to believe; they want to force the larger society to conform to their beliefs often at the expense of other's rights. One need look no further than same sex marriage. Many theists still believe homosexuality to be morally wrong just because the bible says so. Fine. However, they have taken that religious belief and enshrined in most states through constitutional bans on same sex marriage thereby depriving me of my human rights. That is my issue.
Durro
April 9, 2012 at 5:56 am
Lynne, if it was just as simple as leaving the religious to it, your idea may have merit. Unfortunately, religious influence and power is being exerted in the areas of politics, medicine, education, human rights, sociology and a number of other important areas, often to the detriment of each. I view the discussion about religion in the public sphere as being somewhat akin to the tale of the Emperor’s New Clothes…it’s about time that people stood up and told the self-evident truth that the Emperor is stark naked and the many claims of religion are fatuous and errant. I do admire some aspects of religion – charitable works, health care, social support, etc, but the undeniable truth of the matter is that these things can be and are achieved without the precondition of accepting fairy stories as truth and as a guide for one’s life. We look back at the ignorant beliefs of our ancestors with regard to the geocentric theory or flat earth theory with mirth. I hope that one day we will do the same with religion, for it falls into the same outdated basket of erroneous beliefs we held until we worked it out properly.
Terry Jackson
September 15, 2012 at 8:41 am
Thanks, saved me typing a reply to Lynne.
Randomfactor
September 13, 2012 at 12:45 am
Lynne, it’s because fools vote, and think they can use voting to impose their folly on people who don’t want it.
Troy
June 12, 2013 at 9:21 pm
I agree. I'm an atheist and I hate how other atheists give us a bad name by judging believers. I don't like when religious people judge me though. In that case, I don't mind if people judge them back.
Caius Newton-Smart
April 7, 2012 at 11:28 pm
I really enjoyed reading this!
This is excellent, good work!
paul
April 14, 2012 at 5:57 pm
hi – I'm not atheist, agnostic or religionist – but I would like to see some of the facts you allude to, without linking to, supporting some of your argument. You state :
" What’s more, the evidence supporting this conclusion comes from rigorously-gathered, carefully-tested, thoroughly cross-checked, double-blinded, placebo- controlled, replicated, peer-reviewed research. The evidence has been gathered, and continues to be gathered, using the gold standard of scientific evidence: methods specifically designed to filter out biases and cognitive errors as much as humanly possible. And it’s not just a little research. It’s an enormous mountain of research… a mountain that’s growing more mountainous every day. "
So, I would consider 50 studies or research papers a significant quantity that I would consider, as a minimum, 'mountainous'. Could you please post the links to say, 25 of these studies ( that are peer reviewed, double blind placebo based – and please could you specify also which ones have been 'replicated' ? ).
Thanks, if you could do that please.
I want to see these for myself. To fully appreciate and substantiate the strength of this part of your argument. The same thing I expect of either side of this atheist / religionist argument – details.
I have other questions about your argument but I will wait to see your response to this query first.
paul
guest
May 5, 2012 at 4:00 pm
#1 If someone took the time to post these references, would you cede the point?
#2 Do you doubt that someone could find these articles?
#3 Go to PubMed, and you can look up all of your own peer-reviewed articles. Nobody should have to think for you.
Another Guest
December 13, 2012 at 7:53 pm
Hi Paul. Interesting. It has been 31 weeks and nothing. I wonder why? Could it be that this entire thing is based on massive over generalizations and assumptions with little to support them other than the amazing erroneous and illogical statement that Christians are irrational? Like your one comment before me: "Go do it yourself because we are too busy being smarter than you". Love it. Atheists are hilarious.
Bryan Ritchie
January 2, 2013 at 6:39 pm
What they will not do is spend hours trawling through data to select the appropriate ones out of millions of articles, only to then see the post ignored, or just glossed over. They very kindly even gave you the name of the site to do research on. I shall repeat. . .go to Pubmed.
Now lets all be adults and read for ourselves, yes?
Edmund Metheny
February 23, 2013 at 6:03 pm
Buy the book. It has the references.
Daaru
May 12, 2012 at 2:02 pm
The Almighty God exists. My simple question is: WHO CREATED THE WORLD?
daniel keene
May 19, 2012 at 12:44 am
I agree.
Martin
May 19, 2012 at 11:47 pm
You forgot to add the word "-minded" after "simple".
randomfactor23
September 13, 2012 at 12:50 am
I did. Your lease is up Friday.
Anonymous
September 13, 2012 at 2:29 am
If God created the universe, then who created God? The concept of God is useless because it gets us no closer to an answer. Only science will so that.
WhoAmI
September 13, 2012 at 2:38 am
If god created the universe, then who created god? The concept of god is useless because it gets us no closer to an answer. Only science will do that.
Tony
September 17, 2012 at 11:55 pm
The world exists. My simple question is: WHO CREATED GOD?
Reefseeker
February 2, 2013 at 7:07 am
God has Always existed, our pea sized minds can't understand that, just like we can't understand infinite space or infinite smallness..
christian thomas
September 23, 2012 at 5:25 pm
gravity and accretion (ie natural forces) created the earth slow poke.
next question.
Whatever
January 5, 2013 at 4:22 am
science, educate yourself before you talk
Ken Umbach
February 25, 2013 at 4:30 pm
If you think Someone "created the world," then who created the creator? And who created the creator of the creator. Ad infinitum. The argument that the universe is so complex that it had to have had an intelligent creator begs the question of where the necessarily even more complex creator came from. If the universe did not emerge without conscious direction, neither did a creator. Nor the creator's creator. And on and on.
Lol
May 3, 2013 at 6:09 pm
U see how god is amazing, god wants to test u about thinking who created him, NO ONE DID, HE WAS THERE BEFORE THE WORD CREATION HE MADE IT
Angie
May 18, 2012 at 6:47 pm
"18 For God's indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men who are retaining the truth in injustice,
19 because that which is known of God is apparent among them, for God manifests it to them.
20 For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless,
21 because, knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him, but vain were they made in their reasonings, and darkened is their unintelligent heart.
22 Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid,
23 and they change the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being and flying creatures and quadrupeds and reptiles.
24 Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,
25 those who alter the truth of God into the lie, and are venerated, and offer divine service to the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed for the eons! Amen!"
Romans 1: 18-25
Martin
May 19, 2012 at 11:49 pm
This would fall under category #3 above.
DMK
May 22, 2012 at 8:02 pm
Dear Angie,
Congratulations, you have quoted from a book proven to be frequently inaccurate. You must be proud.
christian thomas
September 23, 2012 at 5:29 pm
"and they change the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being "
you mean jesus hanging on a cross, or the incorruptable glory of god narrative of creation that is wrong on all accounts?
daniel keene
May 19, 2012 at 12:41 am
This is good I bookmarked it. but in a GODFORCE I will always believe. Daniel.keene3@gmail.com
Tim Owen
May 20, 2012 at 8:43 am
Religion is a mental illness as proven by Angie and Daniel, anything that stops you from seeing the world as it really is and from seeing this superb, logical article for what it is cannot be mentally healthy. You crazy, crazy people.
Erik Griffiths
September 12, 2012 at 11:19 pm
1. no evidence
2.. no evidence
3. no evidence
4. no evidence
5. no evidence
6. no evidence
7. no evidence
8. no evidence
9. no evidence
10. no evidence
randomfactor23
September 13, 2012 at 12:54 am
Well, yeah. But that would make for a fairly short, or a fairly redundant article.
Rob
September 13, 2012 at 2:26 am
Kai Neilson is a pretty clever guy- an academic, philosopher and atheist. How would you respond to his views at http://bit.ly/TUYnk9
I would be very interested to know.
thankyou
Rob
matthew
January 23, 2013 at 1:51 am
atheism
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity
b : the doctrine that there is no deity
atheist
: one who believes that there is no deity
agnostic atheist. sums it up. (what i am. easier to clarify as an atheist though)
Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but claims that the existence or nonexistence of such is unknown or cannot be known.
merriam webster. surely it works as a reputable dictionary?
bigmamma1214@gmail.com
September 13, 2012 at 6:40 am
until u have experince life. really learn what life is all about.and know who u are and where u came from the spirit world. also die and left ur body and saw the other side and talked to the people u have losted in ur life. then talk to some one who u knew all ur life that has protect and and guide u to ur future and tell that u have a job to do and ur life is very important to the future. u saw what inner piece was-.then u have no question to ask of. there is no words can not explain or imgine it. until u enter the true life of the heavens that u are so afraid to see in your own small mines u will never get it because u do not under stand yourself. it starts with your inner piece of your soul if u dare to look in it. but there is one thing your missing. and that is a soul. that is why u have a hard time to fine yourself. you are so lost and u can not fine that peace you are looking for go ahead let me know when u fine it. i will be here to help u understand.
Milos
September 13, 2012 at 1:39 pm
You only need reason number 10. No more. For every normal person there is, that is enough. Rest is adding on pile.
Trust in evidence and you will find answers.
Peter Gatkuoth
October 2, 2012 at 6:25 am
My name is Peter
What we need to know is that; Nothing can come out of nothing. Likewise our world we have today must have creator….God. natural world cannot exist without the owner who keeps it. Due to the disobedient to God humankind corrupted and put Satan as his master instead OF HOLY GOD; In my opinion I don't blame Atheist Christians or whoever believes what because what we say contrary to God comes from devil whose purpose work is to steal,destroy and kills that play hot game through out every one minds; I want to say that let our choices we makes be positive towards who you really thinks in real God to believes in.
Bryan Ritchie
January 2, 2013 at 6:44 pm
Weak logic.
Premise 1 – Nothing can come out of nothing. – I am fine with this. Most of the way sentient beings see the world is based on this view.
How about this instead. If there was a big bang it is logical to our current understand that there was probably an instigating force. To push that further and imagine this instigating force has a form of seeing the world, supervising it and specifically watching over some tribes of primates to make sure they behave well. That may be stretching the power of logic
Premise 2 – Due to premise 1 the world must have a creator – Whatwhatwhat????!
Jason
November 11, 2012 at 4:57 am
All 10 of your reasons are based on the assumption that science explains everything and everything we can see, feel or touch is right and cannot be contested or argued against. The world we live in and the intangible connections we create between each other whether they be bad or good proves intelligent design and the possibility of a God.
Say for example, you found a car with no markings or signs to let you know who made it. It looked very unique and nothing like anything else on the street. Did the car just exist like the world? Or was someone responsible for it's creation? It is the same with the world we live in, there are no physical signs of a creator that we can see but is what we see really everything there is to see? What about the intangible qualities we cannot see? The planet we live on is unique because we are the only planet in our solar system that holds life. Why is our planet the only planet that has the perfect conditions to sustain living organisms? If evolution was really behind our existence why don't other planets have life and for animals and human beings to start from organisms or replicating cells.
Also how do we communicate with each other as human beings with feelings and emotions. We cannot see ourselves connected physically but we might be connected to each other in a spiritual or universal sense as one specie connected together through an intangible force or power that we cannot see. What about the intangible qualities and entities of the Earth and the Universe that science cannot explain? Science in Latin means knowledge but what if our knowledge is limited because we have limited understanding and capabilities.
The whole point of faith and religion is believe in something that you cannot see but can only feel. If you looked at two people, you probably could not see what they thought of each other but you could probably feel something in the air or maybe feel uncomfortable if those two people hated each other. Life is about instincts and feelings. Science has it's limits and so do human beings. I would rather keep things beyond my understanding where they are and not be too arrogant to think as a species that we can phantom out the wonders of the universe.
geraldine
November 18, 2012 at 12:03 am
you can feel God in the deepest part of your heart if you want to. you yourself is the manifestation that God is all there. just a hint. why not try to read and study about Jesus Christ. and then compare it with what you believe now. just for a year maybe. it will give you some enlightenment. don't be too close minded on this things . your spiritual aspect depend on it. think you. and God Bless.
Tom Grappin
December 7, 2012 at 1:55 am
“Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don’t believe in God and they can prove He doesn’t exist, and there are some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it’s about who is smarter, and honestly I don’t care.” – Donald Miller
supenatura witness
December 12, 2012 at 6:24 pm
Well maybe you should read the bible. Learn some history, check in to physical artifacts found written in the bible before they were made or found. Do some research in prophecies. Understand law commandments and consequences for disobeying them in past history and compare them up to know. Tell you what prove to me without a doubt that he doesn’t exist once you have the intelligent facts about foreknowledge and events that were told by prophets prior to them happening just as they said. And prove me he doesn’t exist. Actually you probably won’t get it anyway just of the fact you don’t believe. He doesn’t reveal himself or knowledge to those who don’t. Your eyes and ears would be doomed by just that fact. But if you seek with your heart without a doubt you will find him once you educate yourself. And if you do, as i hope you do, when he reveals himself, you will be very sorry for even contemplating such an insult to the creator. And if you don’t care, well you’ll be sorry someday but then that’s to late, and you’ll know what its like to truly not care. Peace
Anonymous
February 21, 2013 at 5:10 am
Just shut up.
kesk
May 16, 2013 at 4:13 pm
Read the bible my ass.
karen
December 28, 2012 at 3:09 am
Does everyone who believes in God or have ' faith in god' suspend rational belief in other areas of their life? Do they just accept things without explanation or evidence? Do they believe in father christmas, the tooth fairy and whatever other nonsense they're told?
Caren
January 16, 2013 at 4:47 am
Wars are not made by God, wars and all the world's suffering is due to the lack of belief in the human's hearts.
Quagadosian
January 27, 2013 at 5:23 pm
You're all wrong. Quagados is the real ruler and creator of the universe and you so therefore he also created your "God". Prove that he exists someone says. Ha! He is so almighty and so powerful that our human minds are incapable of grasping it's existence however if you really really really force yourself to believe in her (yes he is a female and yes I said "he") then you will know he is real because you believe she is real. The evidence is insurmountable already though. Look at trees, all crazy and barky, with leaves. That is proof of a higher power and that higher power is Quagados. So why would an almighty being need to create all this you ask. To show off his almightiness to herself of course (when speaking of Quagados, almightiness is an actual definition because I say so (and because I just right clicked and added it to my word definition) and just because you don't believe it's a real word doesn't mean it's not. I'm right your wrong. Quagados is a fact because I say so and there is absolutely nothing you can do to refute that even if you don't believe he is a fact she is and I have a 1736495 year old book written by aliens to prove it but in order to even see it you have to truly 100% without a doubt believe with all your heart that Quagados is your supreme ruler and you will obey and follow. However for a small one time fee of $49.95 I'll let you borrow my copy but you have to know Chinese, Finnish, Tagalog, Wolfe and Gothic to read it cause it's written in yellow but for another small payment of $108.16 I'll have it translated into any language you want. So now you all know about our true origin and the day you die will be the day you finally meet Quagados then you can rise from the dead as a zombie and tell us all about him, her, she, it, thing.
Luke
January 27, 2013 at 11:34 pm
In my opinion, people are scared or "want" to have a higher purpose in life. They have "faith" and "feelings" that they want to believe that some, greater being is involved with it. I think its silly. Great article!
nomadic75
February 2, 2013 at 5:13 pm
Greta, I found your article very enlightening. I was, however, very displeased that you failed to to indicate sources for your well known facts. As a person who appears to have made Reason their ultimate authority this is obviously a major oversight. Please add at least some attestation if you want to be taken seriously by rational/scientific people. Religious people quote from their sacred books of supposed divine origin. I would at least hope you will quote from scientists within their realm of expertise. Best wishes to you and all of the readers here in their individual quests for truth and meaning.
Fam23
February 6, 2013 at 4:40 am
I’ve been reading the bible for a short time, I don’t know to much but I continue to learn to seek and to find. I believe all of us don’t want be accountable for what we do that’s why we choose no to believe. To argue is point less because if your trying to prove a fact you should worry right!. For example stealing something you feel different, I should of have took that. Even if someone is teaching thing of that nature we know what we do at times is wrong. I don’t care who u are your not perfect in anyway shape or form, But if you are you shouldn’t have no worry right.
C.D. Brink
February 7, 2013 at 8:05 am
It is so simple. Jesus lives in you so when you become a child of HIM you will no if you are not it will be a problem so just ask him and mean it then you will have all the proof you need. SEE EASY!
Rick
February 20, 2013 at 10:53 am
If God exists, how can he allow children to suffer from sexual abuse, malnutrition, etc? That's just sick: He can do something to stop it but does not. Either God is an evil entity, self-absorbed in his own ego, or doesn't exist.
Todd R
June 16, 2013 at 3:28 am
I was told it happens because people don't do anything to stop it. And I was told abuse and sexual abuse is allowed because god gave the abuser free will.
Joshua
February 21, 2013 at 12:45 pm
Sooner or later you find out that there are some guys who don’t believe in God and they show that they can prove He doesn't exist; and then there are some other guys who do believe in God and they can also show their proof that He does exist. The argument stopped being about God a long time ago, and now it’s a mind game – about who is smarter, and who is able to use big words and abuse their opponent through the use of intellect and language.
In my perspective – in the atheist's own mind – I would state that arguing with religious people is a pointless effort, as neither side can truly prove that God exists, or does not exist. If this were decided on, then the latter of the two, would cease to conceptualise in the thoughts of the everyday man. And in some people and some circumstances, many atheist's love the little games they can play with a religious individual, by using 'logic'. The majority of the time, people like this do not use any evidence to create a basis for their argument, and rather bully those who clearly have a passion, love and relationship for the omniscient being called God. And to be honest, believing in God is no more harmful than believing you can fly. Nothing bad will come from a Christian individual with a well-developed conscience. They are people, normal people who have a strong faith. But that's alright. They won't kill you, or come in your house to rape your wife and your children, they'll only state what the bible tells them – that sin is inside of you. It is no more harmful than saying that your hair needs a wash. Honestly, they would welcome you into their life with happiness and goodwill. They are loving individuals, not abominations.
In my perspective – in the Christian's (not really so the religious individual) mind – I would state that arguing with a passionate atheist is a tedious thing to do, as they are relentless in proving to you that God does not exist. The bible tells us that it is just the devil come against you to cause you grief and to bring down the name of God. Just give up on trying to convince what the bible calls ignorant men. But instead, always show love to them and pray for them like God says to do. They may see this a little bit loony, but know that you know yourself best, and that you are certainly not loony. The bible has enough evidence written inside it to make you feel emotionally influenced so much so that you want to share it with the world, only to be brought down. Do not fear man; fear God, fear in the end that God will decide the fate of the world and all of its people. There is no need to feel angry about proving something to anyone. Follow in Jesus Christ's footsteps, be loving and kind to your neighbours, and know that God always knows what is best for you. And when you feel that you really want to save someone, don't be disappointed if it fails, but know that you have shown love and compassion to your fellow man through God, and that they may hopefully know God even more.
Contrasting both perspectives, logicality and spirituality, I'm sure fellow man can learn to love each other, and not argue or bicker over such a meagre thing. No one will ever truly know. Be logical about that reasoning and you will find that life is much more happy, and that it may even advance your level of thinking – thinking beyond – and advancing mankind through science. If you are passionate for what you believe to be true, then so be it. There is no reason to get angry, use your dogma as a weapon to abuse someone else or even argue about the topic in the first hand. You know as logical human beings that only pain comes from such a task. In a world of freedom of speech however, this is an incredibly hard thing to achieve. It would be ideal to have a well-developed level of understanding in both atheism and religion, where both may be equally happy, but I trace this feeble confliction back to the defects that are human nature. Such is the ideology of sin, according to the bible; sin may not be a religious term either, it can be that divide between civilised and liberal thinking as opposed to the savage anarchical mental illness of life, where humans simply just – do bad things.
If we could only live together harmoniously, then the world would be a better place. But this will never be possible. Human beings are too far engrossed in money, fame and fortune, pride, that they will not set aside those feelings and just love one another.
Peace <3 and to all of you – God bless.
thestargazer02
February 21, 2013 at 11:31 pm
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" ~Hebrews 11:1
The answers do not lie in the mind…. but in the heart.
Stuart.s.s
March 14, 2013 at 5:31 pm
This debate always makes me laugh. I am a christian and proud of it and I am also an Earth Scientist who whole hearted believes in God. I would love for people who are against the idea of God to, for one minute at least, stop thinking they have all the answers and to stop thinking they are far too intelligent to believe in God.
We know absolutely nothing and are consumed with getting bogged down in the details.
I will leave you with these few points to think about:
1) Simple fact is that however much you try and use science to explain things, you can't get past the fact that you cannot have something from nothing!
2) Who are we to say that God's timing is the same as our own observation of time.
3) The universe could not have just happened out of nothing, and all these theories of multiple universes etc……they had to have started somewhere!
4) Again, you cannot get something from nothing!
5) The big question is WHY! Everything has a purpose. Why are we here, why are we in existence?! We must be here for a reason and to think that we just spontaneously popped into existance for no reason is absolutely more absurd than thinking we have all the answers.
Stuart.s.s
March 14, 2013 at 5:31 pm
There is a point to everything in existence, if there wasn't, then there would be no need for humanity would there, apart form self gratification from all our so called acheivements.
Lastly, a fundamental law of the universe is that energy cannot be created out of nothing, or destroyed.
So if we ever get to the end point of Superunification, then where do we go because the BIG BANG could not of 'just' happened out of nothing otherwise it would violtae a fundamental law of the universe!
Just my view ofc
Josiah
March 18, 2013 at 4:46 pm
The earth was created by a super nova. When all the right chemicals mixed it created an atmosphere. Since I'm only a 7th grader my knowledge might not be that great. When the earth was created over time single celled organism developed. Over time those became more complex. They created us. Then everything else.
Kathy
March 21, 2013 at 8:01 pm
Jesus didn't die to give us a religion, he died to give us a personal relationship with the father and only through him will we come to the father. It's called faith and you dont try and work faith out with the mind, its something you feel within your heart and soul.
Todd R
June 16, 2013 at 4:50 pm
Christians say Christianity is not a religion. They say it is a relationship.
Anonymous
April 12, 2013 at 3:13 am
I come from a religious family. Tho I don’t believe in god. But. If my memory serves me right. Isn’t it wrong to be christian and judge people. Whether is by their religion or not. People were born with the freewill to think whatever they want. Let it be. Christians don’t get punishment for a athiests or any other non believing religion. If there is a god and a hell then so be it. We will suffer. Not you. But there’s always gonna be that debate. Who’s smarter. Who’s better. What’s the superior religion. If everybody just accepted life and everything that comes with it there wouldn’t be as much chaos
Steve
April 15, 2013 at 11:19 pm
A lot of you forget or don't know what religion is. Religion is a man made device to create order within society. It's been a successful tool for thousands of years, not just Christianity, but all faiths all over the world. What a lot of you don't realize is that a lot people need religion. To believe is a comfort just as much as not believing. People have prospered from religion as much as others have been harmed from it. All in all, Jesus will never come before an
"Apocalypse". You can't pay taxes if you've been taken in a rapture.
angryatheist
April 23, 2013 at 3:31 pm
I'd like to know why religous people are so stupid.
Tim
April 25, 2013 at 7:10 am
I’m a Christian and I love a nice spirited sit down with my Athiest friends. Philosophizing back and fourth is good for the brain, I think.
I rather enjoyed this blog, it doesn’t change my belief in God but I appreciate someone with actual thought and conviction!
Anyway, I just wanted to say that not all us Christians are of the “OMG UR AN ATHEEST?! WTF IS WRONG WITH U?!?!1″ variety, just as I know most real Athiest aren’t the “Bible burners” people claim them to be.
-Tim
David
April 26, 2013 at 3:01 am
By reading all the comments from people who believe in god we can clearly see that the reasoning in this article holds very true. I have yet to see someone come out with any explanation other than "I believe because I know god exists in my heart" or "god exists because you can't prove he doesn't".
Ill add one of my favorite quotes in here : "Faith is believing something you know ain't true." – Mark Twain
Todd R
June 16, 2013 at 4:48 pm
An atheist said to a preacher there is no God. The atheist challenged the preacher to prove there is a God. The preacher said the atheist; prove to me there is no God.
More Christian logic.
Teacher: Can you see God? Class: No. Teacher: Can you touch God? Class: No. Teacher: Then there isn`t a God! Student: Sir, can you see your brain? Teacher: No. Student: Can you touch your brain? Teacher: No. Student: Oh ok so you have no brain
SteDee
May 12, 2013 at 7:24 pm
if god does indeed exist. and he himself created man in his own image, why would he give him a brain to question his existence? why not plant his existence as a known fact in our minds before we are born. along similar lines, god gave us senses like touch, taste, sight etc……God could use any one of those senses he gave us to let us know he's there. but zip, nil, nothing. those that believe in holy books written by people who where not there, 200 years after the actual events, belong to the infancy of the human race.
Stewart C. Hagerman
May 20, 2013 at 11:03 am
I've never seen plausible evidence for the existence of any God. The bible is used to control segments of society. It 's also used as a way of dealing with having knowledge of our own mortality, and of course it is used to explain anything we don't understand yet. I believe before we were born we didn't exist and after we die we cease to exist. It's the final chapter in your journey.
Stu
Victoria
June 2, 2013 at 6:44 am
I love this article! It's 100% spot on. Will definitely be showing this to some Christians.
Todd R
June 16, 2013 at 3:12 am
The bible says that God created everything and allowed a fallen angel to mess things up and destroy people and there lives. Why would an all powerful god allow that to happen? I was told because god wanted angels and people to have free will he did not want puppets. So an all powerful god allowed something to mess up and destroy is perfect creation? sounds crazy to me. People say God could have destroyed evil in the beginning. If he did people would not have suffered evil since then. And the bible says that god loves everyone. People say god loves everyone but allows a fallen angel and evil people to kill people and ruin there lives. Sounds crazy to me. People say Jesus is God and will come back to destroy evil. Then everything will be peaceful and perfect. If Jesus is God why didn’t he do that after he allegedly resurrected? If Jesus is God he could have done that and billions of people would not have been born and suffered evil since then. I was told God will get more glory taking out evil later; then we would if he took it out in the beginning. So people suffer from evil because god did not take it out so e gets more glory later. Sounds crazy to me. And people say you can’t believe unless god gives you the ability to believe. So if someone doesn’t believe and is punished for eternity it is because didn’t give them the ability. And the bible says that God allows believe lies about him. Thousands of people read the same book and get different ideas of what it means. Why would an all powerful god allow people to be confused and not understand what he has to say? And people say we can’t fully understand god and his ways because we are just finite humans. I don’t believe because of all these things.
Todd R
June 16, 2013 at 5:05 pm
In First John it says who ever is born of God cannot sin. And who ever sins is of the devil. You can't be of God and the devil at the same time. I was told the verse that says who ever is born of God cannot sin does not mean a believer never sins again. I was told it means the won't continue sinning like they use to. They say believer will sin until they die. They say what is says is not literal. They say you have to interpret it properly. They say the Christians that lived back when this was written understood it properly. But because of translations problem it could not be translated in to English to mean what it meant back then. So this is another case of the bible not meaning what it says. You have to properly interpret what it is trying to say. So what Christians are sort of saying is that God allows people to be confused and not properly understand what was being said because we do not interpret it correctly. And because it can't be properly translated in a way to say what it really means. That sounds dumb to me.